My buddy Andy and I used to convene in high school study hall every day and discuss our late nights with David Letterman. One of our favorites was Thursday night when Dave would answer the viewer mail. Paul Shaeffer would sing..."letters, we gets stacks and stacks of letters....letters". The story is semi-true, I'm not sure how excited we actually were for viewer mail, but since Andy's wife has plagued my comment section with deep, dark atheistic questions I thought it was an appropriate intro.
So, here we go with our first instalment of viewer mail...
'Life happens: we decimate the rain forests and kill the native species; the earth's crust destroys our coastland and kills lives. It's the flux and flow of life. There is no cause or reason. It's the looking for a reason that fosters the anger and resentment.' Where do you categorize this type of atheist? And how do you answer him?
I've been reading some of the philosophy genre lately...in thinking about my answer, I can already see that effecting/affecting me. Anyway, without any further stalling on such a question...
Categorizing & Answering:
In my mind, the issue of "cause" seems to be the weak area of this atheist's argument.
"There is no cause or reason." To me it seems that a causeless, reasonless world has no anger and resentment in it because nothing has existed to cause the anger/resentment. I'll attempt to explain my thinking behind that statement. By the very act of saying "it's the looking for...that brings anger", the person has entered into an causal argument stating that the cause of B is A. In this case, the cause of anger and resentment is in the looking-for-a-reason. Therefore, if my second rate logic works, how could there be any anger/resentment in the world when we've removed some sort of evil causing it? Whether this "evil" is a tsunami, an earthquake, or looking for a reason for suffering...there has to be a cause.
Let's assume for a moment that the cause exists, but it is unknowable ("There is cause and reason, it is unknowable. Anger is a result of searching for the cause."). In this case, perhaps we would feel emotions of anger when we experience the frustration of tracking down something unknowable. Still, I would want to ask similar annoying questions. For example, our new and improved statement seems to have tracked down a knowable cause of anger and frustration...and, again, this anger stems from trying to pinpoint any causes. But, if our statement were true , we would not have been able to discover the unknowable cause of our frustration toward discovering causes. In other words, we still have a causal statement, it has just been expanded with a "it is unknowable" footnote.
If my two short paragraph's semi-coherent statements are convincing...and, if the atheist admits that some sort of "cause" exists in the world, then the discussion moves to a different level. What is the cause? The where does evil come from question should be as difficult for an atheist as why does suffering exist is for a theist.
That is the long answer to your question. The short answer is that I would just try to confuse him or her with alot of philosophical mumbo-jumbo until they were confused and walked away.
Anyway, I'm not sure any of that actually works logically. Another option would be giving them a 4 Spiritual Laws Tract. How would you answer the question?
4 comments:
The where does evil come from question should be as difficult for an atheist as why does suffering exist is for a theist.
My point is that this type of atheist is not looking for a cause. Bad things happen; good things happen. It doesn't matter the cause of either because no cosmic cause actually exists. There is no supernatural driving force of evil or good. One can only live one's life so as not to inflict any harm on another.
It would seem to me that this "do no harm" belief would be the weak point of an atheist's argument (at least, this particular type of atheist who holds no God-focused anger). He has admitted himself capable of causing something else harm; therefore he understands that bad things generally happen for a reason and that suffering is usually the consequence of something or someone causing bad things to happen. It stands to reason, then, that he would have to believe that good things are also caused by something and have good consequences of peace and joy.
But even if this atheist admits these things, he can still hold his ground on natural disasters. The earth was not created, but has evolved, and is evolving. Natural disasters are kinks in the system, still being worked out as the universe marches toward no one knows what (a utopian ideal, some hope). No one causes these natural disasters, so one cannot be angry about their occurrence. One can, however, be angry about how people respond to the consequences. Hence, the anger at the government for the needless loss of life during and after Hurricane Katrina. This anger stems from knowing that people are the cause for harm, not any cosmic punishment. This means that the converse is also true, as stated above: people are the causes of good things as well, not a divine Providence.
Which brings me back to square one, I guess. If you cannot convince them to acknowledge that good things come from God, how can you convince him that bad things come from the Devil? He doesn't believe in the supernatural, but only in the here and now. No afterlife precludes punishment and reward. The only thing that matters to this atheist is what happens in the present. Consequences result from human action, not divine intervention.
I don't think I'd hand him the "Four Laws" spiritual tract. (I thought it was five laws. Or is that one I'm thinking of the five steps?) But G.K. Chesterton's play The Surprise and C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy might have an effect.
Yeah...the Spiritual Laws comment was an attempt at cynicism. I don't think I'd give anyone any Spiritual Laws tracts these days. I'm not sure tracts ever worked that well, but I think they are especially ineffective today...possibly even worse with athiests.
Anyway, now that I've cleared my name on that one...I'm a hair confused as to the make-up of our Mr. Athiest character. In the first paragraph (and your last comment), he sounded a little eastern/mystic/Buddhist...like he doesn't believe in causes and effects. But, the rest of what you said made it sound like he believes in causes.
If a person believes that things are caused, it doesn't seem as though they are too many steps away from seeing that evil has to have some originating cause (any athiests, please speak up). ...which I think would make for an interesting conversation about where evil originates from. Of course, this is a bit of a tough one for Christians as well.
Anyway, let me know if I'm misreading you. But, I'm confused about how this guy is made up...
The mighty number 4:
http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/
:)
I shouldn't wonder if many atheists are Buddhists. Such a religion would fit their criteria well--people cause problems, not some divine being. Hence, if we all play nice, the world will be a better place. No competing religions to create strife.
In other words, I think this particular hypothetical atheist is an atheist, not because he hates God per se, but that he hates what religion causes people to do. So he does believe in cause and effect, just not those people attribute to the supernatural.
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